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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
What I like to do is first get a base line for stock. I do this to have something to gauge the change. Way to stiff on the rear is how we look at the base line then come up with a corrected number.
I take the balance and ratios to come up with a number then use a % of change. In this case rider weight only.
Spung,unsprung,ACF, rate,balance,LR(MR),ST. This formula provides the number for spring rate corrected.
ACF= angle correction factor. Basically cosine of shock angle. For % or multiplier, cosine or inverse consine.
This provides a straight line equation. By using the numbers I posted Amy one can use the online calculators or do the math themselves. I found in my work on my bike the on line calcs are to stiff.

Rider weight x mutiplier, then use the other two numbers to get spring rate. You have to use the inverse of the two numbers I posted to work the problem backwards.

I'll work up examples if you don't get it. This is back yard hacker math, do sorry if it's kinda wierd.

I take the LR and turn it into a usable MR. What I do is find the shaft travel for 1" of wheel travle. 1/1.5 =.6666. This is number you use for MR. Make sense? Remember I could be wrong.


LOL :-) ----- holyfk
I'll just wait for the charts.
Great work adnoh thx.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:15 am
Posts: 435
Location: Springdale, AR
canadian oddy wrote:
adnoh wrote:
What I like to do is first get a base line for stock. I do this to have something to gauge the change. Way to stiff on the rear is how we look at the base line then come up with a corrected number.
I take the balance and ratios to come up with a number then use a % of change. In this case rider weight only.
Spung,unsprung,ACF, rate,balance,LR(MR),ST. This formula provides the number for spring rate corrected.
ACF= angle correction factor. Basically cosine of shock angle. For % or multiplier, cosine or inverse consine.
This provides a straight line equation. By using the numbers I posted Amy one can use the online calculators or do the math themselves. I found in my work on my bike the on line calcs are to stiff.

Rider weight x mutiplier, then use the other two numbers to get spring rate. You have to use the inverse of the two numbers I posted to work the problem backwards.

I'll work up examples if you don't get it. This is back yard hacker math, do sorry if it's kinda wierd.

I take the LR and turn it into a usable MR. What I do is find the shaft travel for 1" of wheel travle. 1/1.5 =.6666. This is number you use for MR. Make sense? Remember I could be wrong.


LOL :-) ----- holyfk
I'll just wait for the charts.
Great work adnoh thx.


I'm just hoping for sentences that I can comprehend. :-) :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
Working on chart. With one single rate spring it's not looking good. For that 135 lb guy with 15% sag
Does the stock have any sag with stock spring. Some one jack up and then lower push down a few times and role back and forth and see what it is if any.
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
Working on chart. With one single rate spring it's not looking good. For that 135 lb guy with 15% sag
Does the stock have any sag with stock spring. Some one jack up and then lower push down a few times and role back and forth and see what it is if any.
Thanks.


I can assure you that the stock set up had NO sag.
I know that because I ran the stock springs for quite a while and had my machine jacked up many times to change wheels, do repairs etc etc. I noticed NO wheel drop that I can remember.

I also spent several hours today looking for helper springs and multi rate springs for our machines with NO luck at all. Everything I found was to big ID.
So it looks like it will be single rate springs only.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:21 pm 
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Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
Is this one?


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
Is this one?


Yeah I seen those ones but I was looking for some helper springs with some spring rate and not just take up slack caused by the shorter 10" main spring we will be forced to run.

Edit: Here is the site: https://eibach.com/us/c-41-ers-helper-spring.html
You will notice that the only 188 spring they got has only 12.34lbs of spring rate.
Not much help.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
Spec


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
Spec


Haahahahaha I just posted that with an edit.
12 lbs of spring rate won't help us much will it ??

Edit: and the yoyo's want $50 for it. You can get a whole spring for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
I think it may help.
This would allow for a softer rate like 140 and allow for the sag with out to much preload.
With your weight and balance and sprung weight of 180 it could give you the sag you need with some peload adjustability with a bottom out around 420 to 460.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
I think it may help.
This would allow for a softer rate like 140 and allow for the sag with out to much preload.
With your weight and balance and sprung weight of 180 it could give you the sag you need with some peload adjustability with a bottom out around 420 to 460.


Really looking foreword to those charts.
How far have you got on em ??


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:15 am
Posts: 435
Location: Springdale, AR
I realize that we are still getting shorter but I found these dual rate springs. Progressive Spring 03-1365B. 9.87" long. 1.85 ID. Rate is 120/170. Sounded interesting anyway. Saw other rates. 70/120, 140/200 etc...

$77 on Amazon Prime...

https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Suspension-03-1365B-Black-Spring/dp/B000GTY466

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:01 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
TerryH wrote:
I realize that we are still getting shorter but I found these dual rate springs. Progressive Spring 03-1365B. 9.87" long. 1.85 ID. Rate is 120/170. Sounded interesting anyway. Saw other rates. 70/120, 140/200 etc...

$77 on Amazon Prime...


Something is "off" on those springs.
The top end looks narrower so I don't think these will work.
Also the description in the ad is off. They talk about 13", 14" etc and then say these are 9.8" long ??
That 9.8 is too short in my opinion --- if they even are that length.
I think we should stick with the "known" single rate springs that we have available.
Once adnoh posts the sheets we can fool around a bit with stuff.
I actually run a dual rate spring on two of my machines but have no idea if I am close. I need those sheets.
All I know for sure is that the stock spring rate is total junk. There is NO shock travel with those springs.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:57 pm 
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Posts: 435
Location: Springdale, AR
Just throwing them out there since I stumbled across them. 9.8 is the spring length. The other listed lengths are the Progressive Suspension shock lengths that will work with those springs.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
need info, see pic
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
need info, see pic
Thanks


It's 14 1/4" from center of hiem to center of shock bolt
It's 16 3/4" from center of hiem to center of axel

Keep in mind that the hiem can be unscrewed for adjustments but lets just get a close enough number here.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
Thank you
The nbers good enough. I just need them to done check what I come up with. Working out a couple of bugs then ready to post. Using a single spring I have a coplue of different set up for you to look at. One with a 140 and one with a 100. It will require different solid spacers. No big deal since they can be cut to lenght. I'm really leaning toward an100or 120 that is why I need the numbers.

I'll enter the info tommorow and post if it works out.
Thanks for being patient.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
Thank you
The nbers good enough. I just need them to done check what I come up with. Working out a couple of bugs then ready to post. Using a single spring I have a coplue of different set up for you to look at. One with a 140 and one with a 100. It will require different solid spacers. No big deal since they can be cut to lenght. I'm really leaning toward an100or 120 that is why I need the numbers.

I'll enter the info tommorow and post if it works out.
Thanks for being patient.


No problem on the being patient part. I kind of figured it wasn't gona be simple job because there is a lot to consider and calculate. That's why I never tried to do it myself. The good part here is that we got some real good info that will be accurate and it's what Honda should have done in 1985. Not sure why Honda did what they did. Those stock springs are WAY off.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:15 am
Posts: 435
Location: Springdale, AR
I and others I'm sure, really appreciate all the time and effort you guys are putting into this.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
Take a look at this and see what you think


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Wow that's pretty complete.
I can actually figure it out. Nicely done.

I have a question:
How do I know that based on the spring rate I choose, that my shocks won't bottom out ?? What am I suppose to be looking for on that chart and future charts ??


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:03 pm
Posts: 549
Location: Jerseydale, CA
Forgive me if I have missed this, but does this account for the spacer as well? Does the spacer change anything in the equation?


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
CO, it will bottom out at the listed BOP. Compare to the stock spring. Here is where a good bottom out bumper helps.
Garrmie, the spacer it at zero preload. This means the thickness of the solid spacer is cut so no static preload poundage is on the shock. Then you go to the adjuster position for poundage change. Remembermber this is per wheel.

With this info one can go with softer or stiffer depending on there type of ridding.
The posted chart is a starting point. I will show some examples of how it can change and what adjustment are required for different requirements.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7710
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
CO, it will bottom out at the listed BOP. Compare to the stock spring.


I might be reading this part wrong on the chart.

1) I see on the chart some figures just above the Position 1 and Position 2 boxes.
That first line at the end says "Honda base line" and the line below it says "race tech confirmed".
Can you explain these two.
I think I know but not sure. Please clue me in.

2) Edit: I think I also see a boo boo there -- on the top left of that chart it says "103 lbs needed at Sa D (sag desired) and 35.00 SPL (static preload) at pos 3
Well if the desired sag needed is 0.5" and 103 lbs needed then that would be pos 4 and NOT pos 3 ??

3) Can you also post a chart for the 250 lb guy and a chart for a 180 lb guy ??

This is great stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:33 am 
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Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
see if this helps


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 Post subject: Re: Rear springs...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3625
Location: Wichita ks
According to the chart you need 103 lbs +/-
Look at chart you take pre-load position #3 @ 17.50 then add shaft travel for that position 87.5 =105
I do not now how accurate the info is since we no measurable base line for correction. It is based from what I come up with with the numbers supplied.
Once terry H is done I can adjust. I will post up a chart based on his weight and spring package. Then we will see what adjustment need to be done to chart for a better or more accurate chart.
We have to start some where. I would hate for some one to buy springs that don't work for them.

What you don't see is the effect on wheel rate which is not a one to one relation ship to spring rate. I left this out to try to keep it simple. The math is done behind the seen.If you would like I can do a short babble sheet for you.


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