For those of you who have the Powerbloc Clutch, this shows the colour codes of the diff spring rates.
The primary purpose of this spring rate is to set the Clutch Engagement at the preferred revs.
Many believe it's the amount of discs in the red blocks, and to an extent it does. But it's really the spring rate first,then the amount of discs for the rate of shift after...Baz

http://www.cvtech-dist.com/Client/page1 ... 45&clef2=8

Thanks for the update, so what spring are you running?

Why don't they show a RPM chart with the springs?

What is your source for springs, do you have a source or PB dealer in your area so you can get different springs?

I could never get my Pilots Engine to bog even on pavement using the weakest spring I had access to and using the most weights I could install in the pucks.

According to harold at HRD they only make 3 springs, the 3- 3/4" long Black 3 -5/8 Black and the 3 -1/2 Black., he told me this after selling me a 4" long Gray spring, LIAR, he was speechless when I asked if he wanted me to email him a copy of the receipt with his hand writing on it spelling out the gray 4" spring, I called to get a spare gray spring, that is when I quit listening and dealing with him, another mutt trying to sell off his inventory and NOT help the customer! I have a bunch of other PB springs I got from a friend, he used them back in his FL250 racing days.

If you read about clutching you will soon find out the driven on the Pilot limits your performance because it not adjustable, most every clutch tuning solution refers you to adjusting the driven clutch, so much for installing a comet 102C that is adjustable 100 different ways, whats the point if you cant adjust the driven? The PB has more adjustability than you can use with the stock Pilot driven.

I could never get a fast enough upshift using the stock driven, more power was turned into wheel spin until about up to 45 mph (depending on the type of surface) then you could see the gains, this reminds me I need to order a 33 degrees helix for my current driven or buy some new tires lol ..

I liked the 4" gray spring how ever after continued use when I took it out I noticed when placed on a flat surface the spring did not set straight, I assume it was going into coil bind when fully compressed.


What was your RPM changes when you removed 2 washers?

A few things you need to focus on when reading about clutching, first on a Pilot or Odyssey you need to upshift long before peak torque, this is the biggest mistake most make with clutching a Pilot or Odyssey you can easily tell what guys have been reading snowmobile clutch tuning books when you see them running around with their Engine screaming and no wheel spin, they are upshifting past or real close to the engines peak torque. The books will tell you to shift at peak torque, this is perfect advice if your running your Pilot on a paved oval track where traction only will change slightly, it will also apply on hard pack dirt tracks that stay pretty consistent throughout the race day.

You will learn soon enough the terrain we ride on changes too much to make use of most fine tuning talked about in most books.

What you don't want is bogging when you accelerate, that is from a standing start or pulling out of a tight turn, you also don't want excessive wheel spin, or to be running around with your Engine screaming, this is where the stop watch comes in, check your acceleration rate with every clutch adjustment don't be fooled by the way it feels, sounds or what the tacho says the time and distance timing will tell the truth. I wonder if one of them automotive accelerometers thingies you attach to your dash would work on a Pilot?

Mine is this one, as it came from ATV R.
35-X-5243312


silver/red/purple


1044


2172
It is the stiffest one.
A dealer in my area!!! Now that's funny! You just don't know how devoid it is here for anything
to do with this sort of buggy stuff. That's why I now can see the benefits of the internet, and of course info sites and helpers like youself.
My Engine bogs due to excessive fuel at low revs and not the Clutch.I even swapped out the base gasket to a 1.5mm alu one that I spent 2 hours on hand filing to try and get the squish band down some.
When I redid the top end, the piston was proud of the cyl deck by about 1.5 mm,4th over, and with no aftermarket oversize head gaskets to clear the piston edge, I spaced the cyl base up by a 2mm alu gasket. This only gave 140 psi and 2.5 mm squish, about 1mm too much. So that's why I made a 1.5mm alu base gasket to piston level the top cyl deck and raise comp. It only improved by 10psi to 150psi.I originally thought that the 2mm was altering the port timing too much,and rich result.Maybe it still is.
When I first took the head and cyl off, yo could see where the head gasket was marking the outer 2mm of piston crown perimeter edge at TDC (Top Dead Center).This was with the cyl on OEM .5mm base gasket.

So you have leaned out the jetting and now your Pilot takes off like a rocket spinning the tires?

Have you contacted IBC to see if they will ship to you?

Ok I didnt reply to your other comments before because I needed a little time to dijest what you have written, first I converted the mm into English units to help me

The only way I think anybody can help you is first we need to get the full story I think we need to start from the VERY beginning here, your redesigning your Engine, the beginning would be to list EVERYTHING done to your Engine, I also need the current bore and stroke to calculate the proper squish clearance.

Why did you rebuild the Engine in the first place, what was the as found condition of the Engine when you took it apart?


Please read the below after I made changes to ensure its what you wanted to say.

My Engine bogs due to excessive fuel at low revs and not the Clutch.I even swapped out the base gasket to a 1.5mm (.059) aluminum one that I spent 2 hours on hand filing to try and get the squish band down some.
When I redid the top end, the piston was protruding out of the cyl deck by about 1.5 mm (.059) ,4th over, and with no aftermarket oversize head gaskets to clear the piston edge, I spaced the cyl base up by a 2mm (.078) alu gasket. This only gave 140 psi and 2.5 mm (.098) squish, about 1mm too much. So that's why I made a 1.5mm (.059) alu base gasket to piston level the top cyl deck and raise comp. It only improved by 10psi to 150psi.I originally thought that the 2mm (.078) was altering the port timing too much,and rich result.Maybe it still is.
When I first took the head and cyl off, yo could see where the head gasket was marking the outer 2mm (.078) of piston crown perimeter edge at TDC (Top Dead Center).This was with the cyl on OEM .5mm (.019) base gasket.

Its ok for a piston to protrude out the top of the cylinder if the combustion chamber has been modified for this modification, I have seen Engine builders remove material from the bottom of the cylinder to alter port timing and or to build more primary crank case compression perhaps this is what was done to your cylinder you would need to ask the Engine builder what the intent of his design was, sometimes material is removed from the bottom of the cylinder to repair damage to the gasket surfaces then depending on how much was removed the difference is made up with a thicker cylinder gasket.

Their are over sized gaskets made for most over sized cylinders I have no clue what your cylinder is other than its 4th over?

I would forget all about jetting and clutching until you get your engines internal design back to how it was intended to be run.

I was reading about this PB spring engagement info, and it brought up a couple questions in my mind... this is related to the FL250 if anyone knows...

What is the engagement RPM for an FL250 PB clutch as setup originally from the factory?

What is the engagement RPM for a stock FL250 Salsbury drive clutch?

Just curious how they compare. I know that there are many factors that can/will affect the way the clutch behaves, but let's just assume that everything is original as the factory intended (both Honda/Salsbury & Securistat PB).

Thanks,

Rhinoguy

as far as i know and i talked to Harold at HRD about a year ago they are not making PB for the fl250 anymore - not enough demand. he did say something about sending him parts of a 350 Pb and he would turn it into one for a fl250 i never did too much money at the time.

me i went to a Comet 94c kit drive and driven - did some changes to get mine to engage above 4grand - not everbody needs or want that but it works for what i have.

the stock sal/clutch on my second ody engages just above idle.

OMO

Do you have a PB on the FL250?

Thanks for the info OMO.

Hoser, I only have the stock Salsbury drive clutch. Like OMO said, it engages shortly after idle. Blah!

Rhinoguy

You might have one or two springs that is broke if it takes off just above idle, if so this will really hurt the proformance, now might be a good time to service your clutch or even upgrade?

I agree. In it's current state, it's a turd when taking off from a standstill. Something needs to be done.

for about $310 the 94c drive/driven is a very good clutch. you can tune each to some degree.

for the stock sal you might look for the high rpm kit for the drive (hard to impossible find) also look for a 32degree ramp for the driven. each of these would help.

OMO

My Engine is a 89 CR500 from ATVR,Neil's Pilot, that I bought from Ed.
It ran strong except for rich on idle.Checked with Neil, and has all carb components as his specs. Then I overhauled and installed new main,needle and jet and float set
Used it at Northam races and was WAY stronger than my stock Pilot was.But still blubbery off the starts like my other Pilot.
Noticed head gasket blown, so took head off, then cranked piston down to checkout cyl and discovered all the previous signs of 4 point seizure.Even the piston crown was sunken in the middle and the bottom ring was seized.This was not done by me, as the piston crown and head dome were still black n greasy,and there was no overheating or noticable loss of power . Was most prob done by the crack addict son of the shipping depot manager in SoCal.He got the keys.
Dismantled cyl and got it bored to 4th size over,91mm, then discovered when assembled that the piston perimeter edge was about 1.5 mm above the cyl deck.Supplier says no oversize head gasket. The ol piston showed marks of the stock sizehead gasket around the perimeter of piston crown.So hand made a 2mm alu base gasket and got 140psi 2.5mm squish. Still blubbery off starts, not bad when heated up.Then outa desperation swapped out the 2mm base gasket for 1.5mm alu gasket and got 150psi.Pulls hard, but still blub starts.
This is where I'm at,and would love to lean out at inital acceleration.Seems to fuel up at idle TOO much.

IMO you need to put the cylinder back where it was, remove the spacer and install the stock gasket.

My buddy made a head gasket holding tool so he could over size the stock Honda 400 gaskets to work with the wiseco over bore pistons so I am sure the same thing can be done with a CR500 gasket if the stock gasket is a all steel gasket like the stock Pilot.

What I would do and have done is measure the stock head gasket thickness then find some copper that's the same or close to the same thickness and use the stock gasket as a template trace out the gasket on the copper and cut and drill it out.

Before you use it you need to heat it up until its about red hot then toss into cold water to ensure its as soft as you can get it.

You can reuse it 3-4 times.



LEAN out the jetting if you know its FAT, start installing smaller pilot or slow jets and turn the air screw out.. Then the blubber will go away.

Have already done the copper head gasket thing!Plus annealed them and lapped. Cost me $150 for 3 oversize(91mm) water-jet cut coppers, and used the blue Hypa spray and they eventually leaked!Head was lapped and cyl deck checked.Another racer I know that races Formula 500's said that he never had any luck with the copper gaskets. He eventually went the O ring route.
Jetting has been leaned out, don't really want to go smaller than #40 pilot jet and changed needle clip to one leaner from center.Am sure something else is the prob. Maybe electrics? Has new plug and boot and starts up very easily,instantly,from cold,no throttle, just choke,fires before you know it's even turned over! Otherwise I think it's the way Neil has ported it.
It's Fri night here now,tomorrow have the Northam races.Have some stiffer competition coming up tomorrow,egR1 Piranha and the winner from Harvey races! Plus a couple of zx9 Piranhas. I can only try my best! I will be raising the idle speed and revving up in nuetral to try an clear the crankcase of overfueling. Wish we could get a practise warmup lap before the race to clear the crankcases!
Will be flying the Pilot flag as best I can! Wish me luck! ...Baz

Why don't you want to go smaller on the pilot jet?

If its loading up on idle you don't need to lower the needle any more, go smaller on the pilot jet, how many turns out have you went on the air screw?

You still have your other Pilot? If so swap fuel pumps, this will make sure you don't have a pin hole in the diaphragm of the pump allowing it to suck in extra fuel.

I would ask neil what is the smallest pilot jet he has had to install in a setup like yours, I would also ask about the slide your using maybe your slide cut away is too FAT.

Got pics of the intake tract?



don't ask for a place to clean out your Pilot before the race just do it, find a place to clear the Engine and do it, when I belong to the local motorcycle club we marked off an area just for the bikes to warm up before the start,it sounds like the place where your racing is mostly 4 strokes so don't know you need to have your Engine up to full temp before a start, on a side note when we ran the hillclimb events they would coast their bikes down to the base of the hill fire the Engine and WOT (Wide Open Throttle) up the hill climb, NO warm up, then again they only ran the Engine for 20 seconds at a time... Talk about LEAN you never even seen any smoke from most of them.

Good Luck Baz!

http://pilotodyssey.com/BillGivensjetting.htm

Baz by removing the cylinder spacer the port timiming is altered. After removing and installing jug look at where the transfer ports match up with the piston crown when piston is all the way down. As you know this will affect the squish clearence. Be carfule there. I,am sure theres a rev pipe on that racer and this also may account for the spacer. This will also lower you exhaust port as well an effect compresion ans cylinder stuffing. If you decide to remove base spacer. Talk with "H" about rasing the exhaust port half of the spacer thickness as not to have the head recut as long as your squish is ok this will keep the top from suffering and lessing the cylinder stuffing effect. Just food for thought. I bet you can get new jug and piston, start off fresh as a back up. 1 to 1.5mm will net 500 rpm on top. I noticed the transfer port loading effect on the piston. somthing looked out of balance. too much cross flow. I hope you get it running strong and smoke some big bored brothers.

Well it's Sun morn here 9am and just got back from Northam Speedway.
Happy as PIG in shit on how I and the Pilot went.
First up BIG thanks to all for the help and especially one guy called ..hmmm..Hoser!
Finally I got the starts that ive been wanting! and really (for a change) did'nt get a bad start!
The clutching,jetting and leaning out my oil-fuel ratio (amsoil) and shutting off while waiting at lines, all got the desired
starts ive been craving.
I was up against the best competition so far, an R1 Piranha,a 600cc Piranha(winner at Harvey last week) and his bro in another fast 600cc-both bros are Western Desert racers and very experienced,a ZX9 Piranha,a Mongoose etc.
Ended up with a 2nd and a 2nd,and a 3rd, but in 2 races I was leading and heading for 2 1st's, when we had to have restarts due to buggies on track! DAMN!
It was awesome to line up and know that I was going to spin off the line!
In one race against the Harvey winner, I beat him to the first turn only to restart latter and come second.
In the pits he was gobsmacked about the drag we had off the line and said he could'nt believe the acceleration of the thing and that he had no excuses and could'nt take me.
After the races last night I swag'd at Troy's place 15 kms down the road and downed some Celerbration Coronas till 3am! I think I had one for each of you guys!:-)
Will get some vids up soon...HAPPY BAZ!

Congrats Baz! Looking forward to the clips.

Gary

Thanks Gary!
Here's Heat 1;Arvo sun was a killer and so was mud-greasy!

Sweet!

Only one video?

I could not tell in the vid if its still shifting into high gear after the rear suspension unloads over the jumps?

No, more vids to upload.Doing 2nd now.
I put Kelly in a diff camera angle position, to capture more of the track,but at the cost of the straight.
I am STILL coming down from the high of a great night's racing and the starts! Woo Hoo!
Moocho Grassius!

Again, congrats. Your driving skills must be getting better. Looks to me like you were driving deep into the corner and hanging on tight down low. The new Pilots looks like it handles great. Looks like a you were having blast.

Gary