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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22526
Location: Chicago
Anybody know the torque for my bus lug nuts?

The studs are 3/4"


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:29 pm 
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I can ask some of our vehicle transportation people at the base. I know they have several buses.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
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Location: CT
You usually do not torque the lugs for a dayton (open wheel). You need to set the run out of the wheel/tire assembly to 1/16th to 1/8th inch, while working your way around the rim and tightening each lug/dawg assembly as you go. Once you have the run out to where you want it, then you sock down the lugs with a 1/2" impact gun. Also make sure to center the tire valve stem between the webbs of the hub assembly and or line up the old paint marks on the rim with the hub. DOT inspectors have been known to write up and red tag a vehcle for loose lugs because of the paint marks don't line up. If you want to put a torque wrench on them for peace of mind then SAE specs for a 3/4" bolt grade 5 is 260 ftlbs. Use no oil and definatly no never seize on these studs.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
King Kx wrote:
You usually do not torque the lugs for a dayton (open wheel). You need to set the run out of the wheel/tire assembly to 1/16th to 1/8th inch, while working your way around the rim and tightening each lug/dawg assembly as you go. Once you have the run out to where you want it, then you sock down the lugs with a 1/2" impact gun. Also make sure to center the tire valve stem between the webbs of the hub assembly and or line up the old paint marks on the rim with the hub. DOT inspectors have been known to write up and red tag a vehcle for loose lugs because of the paint marks don't line up. If you want to put a torque wrench on them for peace of mind then SAE specs for a 3/4" bolt grade 5 is 260 ftlbs. Use no oil and definatly no never seize on these studs.



Thanks for the info..

Why no never seize on the threads I already coated them real good, no big deal to remove I just never assemble anything dry been using never seize on car truck lug nuts for 30 years never any problems...

I tried to line up the paint marks when I reassembled, on the rears I marked where the valve stems were on the hub before I rmeoved them so they are back within 1/4"

To assemble what I did was torque the nuts little at a time starting at 30 and working my way to 90 ft lbs 10 lbs at a time while I was waiting for a reply form you :-) I did not do any run out checks but will check them tomorrow now I know how its done.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:04 pm 
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Location: CT
There are several states that made it a law that you can't have never seize on that style lug nut, must have been many instances of lugs coming losse and causing accidents. You don't want your lugs coming loose so a little rust is ok. This is especially true with the left side lugs as the centrifigal force is working against you.

If you were to not check the runout of the wheel assembly your bus/truck would look like one of those old dump trucks going down the road with the wheel assembly that has a pretty good wobble look to it. Just picture that wobble on the steer axle and you trying to tell the cops that your not drunk, your just tired from riding in the dunes all day.


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 Post subject: Anti-sieze
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:23 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA
"Use no oil and definatly no never seize on these studs. "

Because, when anti-seize, oil, grease or any other type of lubricant including WD-40 is used, the torque is actually being applied to that lube rather than to the fastener.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-sieze
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
DunePilot wrote:
"Use no oil and definatly no never seize on these studs. "

Because, when anti-seize, oil, grease or any other type of lubricant including WD-40 is used, the torque is actually being applied to that lube rather than to the fastener.


I have always lubed fastners before torque, been doing this since I first started wrenching when I was about 8 years old, I have never had a lubricated bolt or nut come loose because of the lube, I NEVER lube bolts that thread into a aluminum housing then torque up the same as I would if they were threaded in steel...

This discussion has come up on other boards I frequent let me post some snips.

Quote:
There are some really interesting things in Carroll Smith's "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook"... it's definitely worth buying. Some brief info from the book:

1) Over-tightening is better than under-tightening. An under-tension bolt failed at 4,900 cycles and an identical bolt that was over-tightened failed at over 6,000,000 cycles! (See book for details.)

2) Worst case torque situation is "dry & unplated" where 50% of the applied torque can be used up overcoming the friction between the bearing surface and the work face and another 40% can be used up overcoming thread friction... leaving only 10% of the torque to pre-load the bolt!

3) Critical tension asseblies (cylinder heads, rod bolts) require special fasteners and each such fastener normally has it own recommended torque value and lubricant to arrive at the correct level of residual stress. (Residual stress is what matters, not how much torque we apply to get it there.)

4) The torque required to produce a given tensile stress varies with plating, lubrication, length of engaged thread, and class of thread fit. We need to achieve an installed tensile stress that is just below the yield strength of the bolt.


Another one

Quote:
definatly use oil or assembly lube. that's why studs are so much better than bolts. a nut threading onto a stud has far less friction than a bolt threading into the base metal under a torque load. the stud and nut will achieve and hold a truer torque setting and there fore more accurate clamping load. just look at auto Engine rod bolts the best way to tighten them is with a stretch guage reagardless of the torque load.


I quote other because they are better at putting it into words than I am, if someone has more info on this subject I would sure like to read it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
Forgot..

IMO if you have a fastner that your worried about it coming lose then you need to apply loctite or another locking device to the threads not torque it dry, I seen lots of damaged threads because of galling, I seen lots of threads fail because of rust.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
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Location: CT
hoser wrote:
Forgot..

IMO if you have a fastner that your worried about it coming lose then you need to apply loctite or another locking device to the threads not torque it dry, I seen lots of damaged threads because of galling, I seen lots of threads fail because of rust.


This is why the industry is doing away with a standard nut to hold on a wheel. Just about all the new wheels are are hub piloted and use a securex nut that is torqued to 450ftlbs. This nut utilizes a locking mechanism built into it, and it has a rotating cup that allows the torque to be applied to itself and not the wheel surface that it is trying to clamp down on. Basically a two piece nut.

The oiled torque spec of your lug nut is 360 ft lbs.

Common sense tells you t o put never seize on the stud, but when you deal with the government and laws, common sense goes out the window.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22526
Location: Chicago
King Kx wrote:
hoser wrote:
Forgot..

IMO if you have a fastner that your worried about it coming lose then you need to apply loctite or another locking device to the threads not torque it dry, I seen lots of damaged threads because of galling, I seen lots of threads fail because of rust.


This is why the industry is doing away with a standard nut to hold on a wheel. Just about all the new wheels are are hub piloted and use a securex nut that is torqued to 450ftlbs. This nut utilizes a locking mechanism built into it, and it has a rotating cup that allows the torque to be applied to itself and not the wheel surface that it is trying to clamp down on. Basically a two piece nut.

The oiled torque spec of your lug nut is 360 ft lbs.

Common sense tells you t o put never seize on the stud, but when you deal with the government and laws, common sense goes out the window.


Thanks for the info, I am all about not creating problems if it will create a problem in the future I will remove it, I know it creates a problem not using it because I spent 2 hrs cleaning the rust off the studs and nuts on 3 wheels yesterday one more to go today, working with these big wheels is a work out I feel like the day after riding my quad with Pilotman at the dunes I wish I had one of them fancy tire dollys heh..

I have no tools to torque to 360 ft lbs I will get them tight as I can with my impact then take it to my buddys and use his 3/4 drive impact.

Mike123 found this link http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/publications ... l_loss.pdf
Starts on page 10.

I have no doubt in my mind that if I took this to a shop and had the tires changed they would take their biggest gun and rattle the nuts off then rattle them back on again without cleaning anything I doubt you will find any tire guy that will clean parts up or even cares if the threads gall or not , I hate when shops charge a flat fee for work like tire and oil changes.


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