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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
TD shipped me his Pilot Engine, he wins the best Engine packing award I seen to date, he also wins the clean Engine award thanks TD for cleaning up.

I will let TD give the details on the packing materials.

The Packing materials completely encase the Engine so it cant move in the box, each piece is like a puzzle that fits perfectly. I am not sure what the material is called.


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TD shipping.jpg
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TD shipping1.jpg
TD shipping1.jpg [ 83.26 KiB | Viewed 2276 times ]
File comment: PCP
TD Clean.jpg
TD Clean.jpg [ 91.08 KiB | Viewed 2276 times ]
TD Clean1.jpg
TD Clean1.jpg [ 80.36 KiB | Viewed 2276 times ]
TD Clean2.jpg
TD Clean2.jpg [ 92.79 KiB | Viewed 2276 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:43 pm 
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Location: Chicago
The head and top of the cylinder, piston


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TD head.jpg
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TD deck.jpg
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TD intake.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:44 pm 
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Location: Chicago
The Engine has been ported by PCP


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TC cylinder.jpg
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TDcylinder1.jpg
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TD cylinder2.jpg
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TD cylinder3.jpg
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TD Cylinder4.jpg
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TD cylinder5.jpg
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TD cylinder6.jpg
TD cylinder6.jpg [ 69.93 KiB | Viewed 2271 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:48 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Piston wash


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piston wash TD.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:56 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Recoil starter, never seen the red stuff before, looks like its never been apart.


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TD recoil.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:57 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Side case removed.

Starter teeth

The drain bolt came out really HARD you can see the threads are bad on the bolt, I will run a tap in the case to chase the threads and try a new bolt.


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TD side case.jpg
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TD balencer case.jpg
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TD flywheel teeth.jpg
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TD flywheel teeth1.jpg
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File comment: The drain bolt came out really HARD you can see the threads are bad on the bolt, I will run a tap in the case to chase the threads and try a new bolt.
TD bad drain.jpg
TD bad drain.jpg [ 81 KiB | Viewed 2259 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:59 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Bottom end


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TD bottom.jpg
TD bottom.jpg [ 89.93 KiB | Viewed 2263 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:01 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Cases split, their is a smoke trail that runs down the transfers into the bottom end, something is not right, the pipe is wrong or the blow down time is wrong I will have to do some research and investigate what is going on, if this condition is not corrected this will happen again, the carbon mixed with oil is not a very good lubricant.


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smoke in bottom end3.jpg
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smoke in bottom end4.jpg
smoke in bottom end4.jpg [ 70.04 KiB | Viewed 2260 times ]
TD bottom muck1.jpg
TD bottom muck1.jpg [ 101.04 KiB | Viewed 2260 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:37 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Tomorrow I will clean and measure everything up it looks like you current piston is 577M8050 if your going to run Wisecos you have 3 bores left on this cylinder, using the quick and dirty method of measuring a .006 feeler guage fit between the piston and cylinder, the rings were .025 gap.

wiesco piston chart


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Pilot Wiseco.jpg
Pilot Wiseco.jpg [ 19.04 KiB | Viewed 2248 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:48 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
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Location: CT
A good fix for the drain plug issue is to run the tap through like you said. then get a replacement bolt, put it in a lathe or dril press, drill a hole large enough to be tapped and install a new bolt inside the replacment bolt. Usually the replacement bolt will have to be trimmed down a bit so there are no threads extending into the oil resivoir (so that all the old oil will drain out) Use red loctite and install the replacement plug. You will also have to grind/machine the hardness marks off the replacement bolt. Install a copper gasket on the insert bolt and thread into the replacment bolt. Yes the oil will take longer to drain but you will not have a case that won't accept the drain plug or tighten up the night before a big ride, and if it doesn't tighten up properly it could fall out while riding without you knowing. I've used this idea for many years when racing bikes that received oil changes after every ride and quickly wore out the case threads.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:53 am 
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Posts: 31
Location: Fort Worth,Texas
Hoser,

Pipe is a ceramic coated torque pipe from 4x4 Tuff, I want to go back to honda piston

TD


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:54 am 
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Location: Chicago
King Kx wrote:
A good fix for the drain plug issue is to run the tap through like you said. then get a replacement bolt, put it in a lathe or dril press, drill a hole large enough to be tapped and install a new bolt inside the replacment bolt. Usually the replacement bolt will have to be trimmed down a bit so there are no threads extending into the oil resivoir (so that all the old oil will drain out) Use red loctite and install the replacement plug. You will also have to grind/machine the hardness marks off the replacement bolt. Install a copper gasket on the insert bolt and thread into the replacment bolt. Yes the oil will take longer to drain but you will not have a case that won't accept the drain plug or tighten up the night before a big ride, and if it doesn't tighten up properly it could fall out while riding without you knowing. I've used this idea for many years when racing bikes that received oil changes after every ride and quickly wore out the case threads.


Good idea use the old bolt as a thread insert, JB weld the old bolt in ?

I was going to chase it with a tap then run the fill/check bolt out of my Pilot trans (I think they are the same) in to see how it feels..

I don't see slow draining a problem with a smaller bolt and hole I usually let mine drain over night.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:52 am 
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Location: Chicago
TD I need to know as much history and information on this Pilot and Engine as you can give me, more details the better, list the mods and accessories, carb and jet sizes too if you can, start with "I bought my Pilot from back in" up to I took the box to FedEX", more is better heh.



Something is going on inside your Engine, that carbon in the bottom end is not normal and is not good we need to figure out how and why its getting their, the problem really needs corrected.

I sent some of the pictures to a friend and will be sending them to other tech gurus to pick their brains and see how I should proceed, at this point I think I need to reverse engineer your porting to see what we are working with.

It maybe a porting design issue it might be a pipe design issue.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:08 am 
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Location: Chicago
TD your Engine appears to be a low hour Engine, the crank bearings are tight, the rod is tight, the seals look great, their is very little wear in the crank where the seals ride, just by looking all indications are its a low hour Engine, I could be wrong, what concerns me is the cylinder is on the 2nd over bore, I have found you can wear out 2-3 pistons per bore on a Pilot before having to go to the next over bore, the bottom end just don't look like it has that much time on it to wear out that many pistons so I have to assume the cylinder came off another Engine or someone had problems keeping pistons in it in the past, at this point looking at the carbon in the transfers and the bottom end I suspect something is not right.

Follow me?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
The head looks uncut and like it had not been reshaped for the porting and pipe. Notice the carbor transition pattern to transfer ports. It looked like it was getting plenty of charge but was not be compressed and shaped to burn effencly and maybe too cold of plug. Ask him if he was running an 8 or 9 in that head. The flame front may have been travling to far across the piston. The loss of pressure on the top side may account for the ring ware up top on the bore. Did he say the hr's on motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) were short. Ihave seen that type of makes on crank before. I had found that the seal was bad and it had set for a while in that state.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:29 pm 
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Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
The head looks uncut and like it had not been reshaped for the porting and pipe. Notice the carbor transition pattern to transfer ports. It looked like it was getting plenty of charge but was not be compressed and shaped to burn effencly and maybe too cold of plug. Ask him if he was running an 8 or 9 in that head. The flame front may have been travling to far across the piston. The loss of pressure on the top side may account for the ring ware up top on the bore. Did he say the hr's on motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) were short. Ihave seen that type of makes on crank before. I had found that the seal was bad and it had set for a while in that state.


The head has been cut, the bowl has some machine marks on it also, I will cc later and post the info.

The piston to cylinder clearance is .010 I will post more later tonight I am waiting to hear from TD and have to fix the daughters garage door she had a blond moment this morning and backed threw it, well almost... :shock:


Attachments:
TD clearance.jpg
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:35 am
Posts: 31
Location: Fort Worth,Texas
Hoser, I bought it around 2001,My Brother in Law Bought it from a Guy In Utah who bought it for his 9 or 10 year old son ,Said it was way too fast for him ,he said he had a new piston put in it,then it sat about 2 years until he sold it.

I bought it 2 weeks after it got here ,

Rode it stock except for air intake mod until it started getting tired summer 2003

Sent top end off to PCP for bore and porting

Porting
Powerblock clutch
39 PWK Carb (was rich out of the box)I'll Check jetting tonight
Powerpros torque pipe(coated)

170 # static Compression

All Were all done at the same time

Ran great, wheelie city !!

Switched from honda oil to Golden Spectra
Some time after that

Installed FMF Silencer


motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) started to get tired
Compression Dropped Some (don't remember how much)

Top end went back to pcp

Got it back

Compression 150

Heat cycled it

Compression 150

Kept thinking needs more time because of the oil

Compression never came up.

10 to 15 Hours Pulled motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? ))
looked at topend looked very loose down by the ports

Shipped it to you.


TD


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Location: Fort Worth,Texas
BR8es on the plug

TD


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:55 pm 
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Location: Chicago
After the rebuild when the compression was 150 did you change anything that would increase the RPM like clutching or going to smaller tires?

When you pulled the top end before sending to me did you wash the piston I don't see any signs of blow by the rings, the piston really looks good, I will look closer at the rings but even they look good.

You are using the same compression tester and feel nothing has changed the tester since the 170 reading, you didnt drop it or lend to a friend?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:12 pm 
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Location: Fort Worth,Texas
Same clutch, Stock tires, Same guage, Can't say if the guage still reads the same. I didn't wash it down, But wiped it off

in between the 1st and 2nd top end I did change to a no rev CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition).
TD


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:32 pm 
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Location: Chicago
TD wrote:
Same clutch, Stock tires, Same guage, Can't say if the guage still reads the same. I didn't wash it down, But wiped it off

in between the 1st and 2nd top end I did change to a no rev CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition).
TD


Drastic increases in RPMs can cause ring flutter, rings use the cylinder pressure to push the rings against the cylinder wall, when the rings flutters the ring loses its tension against the cylinder wall once this happens you lose compression, this usually happens after TDC (Top Dead Center) and the compression blows into the crank cases, again I didnt see any serious blow by on the piston. I will measure the ring thickness and the ring lands to see what the clearance is.

I never had any problems with rings sealing on a fresh Engine and golden spectro or amsoil but I have no experience with Wiseco pistons and ring break in either maybe someone else can help her on wiseco ring seal and break in.

The ring end gap was .025 do you still have the tech sheet that came with your piston, does it list ring end gap?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:41 pm 
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Location: Chicago
I sent the pics of your Engine to a friend below is his comments.

Quote:
The way I see it, the little streaks appear to come from liquid washing, and the pictures of the lower end make me think that's even more true. There appears to be puddling of the carbon deposits at the bottom of the crankcase. Was that there all the time, or did that occur as a result of you pulling the Engine apart? I'm thinking that you might be pulling the fuel into the crankcase fine, and either you have a port imbalance that prevents the bulk of the charge from getting up to the cylinder. Since liquid flows more sluggishly than vapor, you may be getting a slug of liquid up into the cylinder, which causes the piston wash. Is the plug looking good, or does it look fouled? Is the Engine still relatively fresh or worn? Is this out of your Pilot/Odyssey? I'm thinking that the porting may not match the exhaust plumbing (is this the Engine you have with the 2 into 1 expansion chamber? It's not uncommon to see some exhaust residue in the transfers, but down in the crankcase is too much.

Mark



Further comments after I asked permission to post this.
Quote:
Hey Hoser,

Yes, you can post whatever I say to your site. I had been to it in the past when I had my own Odyssey, but I don't think I've been back to it in years. I can't even remember if I was a member or not! But, I'll sign up and look around in there.

Yeah, I'm also thinking that there may be some sort of restriction in the exhaust that would stifle the flow of gasses, which would naturally prevent the gas flow up into the cylinder and cause the fuel to puddle. Also, that would help explain the exhaust residue in the crankcase. When I built my first prototype Engine for my crankshaft design, I duplicated the time-area values of the original Engine in my test cylinder. BUT, I had fuel issues in the crankcase, which I chalked up to the fact that even though my TA issues were correct for the original Engine, the balance was off for the piston motion that my crank produced. That tells me that the cylinder porting in your friends case might be off for his use - he may have bought some fire-breathing cylinder, but didn't go all the way and get the proper exhaust, or put the wrong carb on it. It could be something as simple as being jetted extremely rich, or even having the wrong float level.



TA = Time Area


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:16 pm 
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Location: Chicago
The rings are .047 thick the ring lands are .049


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:06 pm 
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Location: Fort Worth,Texas
Hoser

I don't have the piston spec sheet,

Is it the porting not matching the exhaust?
Can the silencer cause this?
Its a FMF for a cr500

TD


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:35 pm 
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Location: Chicago
TD wrote:
Hoser

I don't have the piston spec sheet,

Is it the porting not matching the exhaust?
Can the silencer cause this?
Its a FMF for a cr500

TD


I can get the ring gap info else where I think I have a tech sheet some place on my site or in my shop, have to dig..

All good questions, I don't know the answers to, to figure that out we will need to reverse engineer the porting and the pipe maybe the silencer to find out.

I guess next question is are you keeping this cylinder, its on its 2nd over bore, it needs bored to the next size, you shipped it with a wiseco piston I assume you have no problem running a wiseco?

I did some measuring your exhaust port was raised .272 over stock .170 higher than I cut mine for my modified Pilot, this reduces the amount of trapped volume that can be compressed, this will lower the static or cranking compression pressures, if he raised the exhaust port opening the last time you sent it to him this might account for the lower compression values you seen IE 170 before 150 after he sent it back... This possible?

Do you have a tach and know about what your Engine is running WOT (Wide Open Throttle) and what RPM the clutch starts kicking in?


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