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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
After seeing all the carbon looking smoke damage to the bottom end i cut the crank bearings apart to see what they looked like .

Arrows point to the pits in the race.

The clutch side has more ghosting or wear look to the race and balls.

I wonder what the rod bearing looks like, I cant see anything through the lube slot, how ever the rod was also covered in the smoke.

Crappy pics I know I will try taking more when the sun changes.


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TD clutch side crank bearing.jpg
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
TD wrote:
Hoser, Correction on the clutch I was running 13 weights, pulled 2 out after I got it back trying to get it to run

Ports were really opened up, Why that much?

Is it more of a rev porting ?

TD


Raising the exhaust port give you more blow down time, a raised exhaust port is usually found in higher revving engines, you lose bottom end and some mid range power when you shift the power band more towards top end.

For an exact answer you need to call PCP I really have no idea what he is trying to achieve, it would take many many hours to reverse engineer his design to figure out what his target might be I rather not waste time on something I will never use.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:04 pm 
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Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
Do you mind if I thow somenthing out there about why And what I feel they were trying to achieve. It's goes against "H" way of thinking. Just for discuession purposes.


Sure let it fly this is a discussion board, I learned 25 years ago no two Engine builders will agree on a engines design, 2 stroke or 4 stroke, you or others having a different idea or opinion would not be unusual .


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
Thank you. I 'am no Engine builder but like to tinker with porting and combustion chambers as well as other things trying to make them more effencient. I do not disagree with your therory just can't get it to work for me yet. The bearing issue is a good find not really surprissing thu. I thought it may have set a while not stored properly. The pitting of bearinr races and oil residue in case is a good sign of not being stored using foggin oil to coat thing and prevention pitting and fuel vaporazation in the case or just a good caoting of sand in the system. My theroy on port timing in this case is from playing with port heights and combustion chamber cc and squish area. I tried to increase revs by raising port heights a little at a time untill it fell flat. Base line for this was factory pipe and clutch match all transfer and clean casting. In the base line the exhaust port heigth + adjustment made little or no differnece. I continued to raise untill it fell flat on it face than started milling head to raise compression untill it hit 165, 150 was base line. This also required me to increase squish band to get to burn clean. with out recuting increasing squish the burn patteren resumbled what his piston look like. After the recut and mill it started to pull but was hardley any gain. I then flow ported a new cylinder clean, matching and increasing intake area. using already milled head with recut squish. I Install torgue pipe with an alt clutch. it woke up. the power was there but the power range seamed toward the bottom end and stumbled on top. I then installed new carb It help a little but not alot. I then increased the area of transfer and raised and reshaped in an oval patteren the exhaust a little at a time untill it pulled all the way to the top. The plug went froman 8 to a 7 the fuel I was pushing needed hoter spark energry to enight the fuel charge.I then installed hrd and that helped as well It seam to like the up shifting of the hrd verses the alt. Looking at the cylinder in question I fell they were on the right track but skpied a couple of thing along the way First the ring pressure at top I fell was lacking due combustion chamber design and not enough spark energy. Second the intake side was asking for more being ported for flow but was restricted by carb size and intake tract area. Third the porting to pipe was not taken into account as to rpm range and heat related to wave strainght, basicly the the pipe was not pushing quickly enough due to too cold of exhaust temp. The wave strenght was too slow causeing the exhaust to slow down compounding the problem. This is were the flame front comes into play. By condinsing the charge yet trapping enough charge in the squish to cool the piston crown. to say it wasn't' condensed properly with lacking spark energy yet flowing ( being pulled and push thru pipe ) at a rate to slow for the port height and pipe wave timing and not creating enough pressure to over come the intake charge causing ring flutter or pressure loss. I feel the cure for that would have been to first use a rev pipe with new carb 39 to 41 and a recut combustion chamber and a squish of at least 55% with hotter spark energy. The trapped fuel should cool the hot exhaust gases enogh not burn edge of piston but increas flow. this is why I played with the squish area wa too get clean burn yet cool dome The stock squish is over down too soon slowing down exhust gases. The eaisest increase in area for intake would be to use a spacer trapping more charge when reed shut and also will change rate of opening and duration under acceleration at higher revs once the wave strenght has been increase via higher spark energy and more effencient combustion chamber and faster flowing exhaust. As far as the slincer goes as long as the exit area( outlet dia) has not benn reduced it should work fine. The bigger the bore and higher the rev the larger to outlet dia should be. too small of outlet withh cause what you see and too large will also. Have to break out calc and book for area calc. as you know I'am not real good at math. I still can't get the calc you posted to work for me. I wont give up thow.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:19 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Sorry it late. The stock squish is over( cooling slowing the)exhust gases.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:05 am 
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Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
Sorry it late. The stock squish is over( cooling slowing the)exhust gases.


Quote:
A two-stroke Engine developer/builder who has not designed and tested a boatload of different exhaust systems for his engines will not progress past a certain point. A whole new level of understanding occurs after a lot of time has been spent doing pipe development. The new understanding will give one the appreciation of the sensitive relationship between scavenging, bulk flow and how sensitive the pipe is to minor porting changes. If you want to move to that next level of two-stroke Engine building, you have to get seriously involved with pipe development. If you do move to the next level of pipe understanding, you will then be able to move to a much higher level of understanding of ports and scavenging.



This quote pretty much sums up why I hit a brick wall on the Pilot Engine, their is a lot more power beyond what I was making when I was running my 400, it was running right with the CR500 modified Pilots (tested it against 4 different ones) MacDizzy crunched some numbers and came up with right under 90hp for a standard bore Pilot, piston life at about the 90 hp mark would be about 10 hrs use then change it out, the steel liner would be removed and replaced with a aluminum one, ports and crank case mods would be performed then the cylinder chrome plated, a totally new pipe would be required, installing the 440 cost less than developing a new pipe would cost, installing the 440 required less thought than developing a new pipe, my 400 Pilot Engine left me with traction problems, you cant do much with the Honda Pilot driven clutch so whats the point of trying to make 90hp or more hp than I was making :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
90 hp for real. I thought it to be around 70. It does sound like in order to get better preformance a different driven and suspension change is in order as well as a motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) change. I can see why I might want to leave it alone and buy new bike already set up to run those speeds. I should pratice what I preach and keep the faith ( modifing the pilot). The cost will be around 4,000 for mods. I bought for 5,000 added 3,500= 8,500 and now add 4,000 more=12,500, I must be nuts. I know as a business decisisoin it a bad one, however this is not business just plain fun. Like tubo it's just money. I do feel the experence gained will out way diffucultys. Education is expenseive. If TD will sell without going on ebay I will consider buying. I will take the path of bigger bore with rev porting and pipe with new drive and driven combo. The driven may be a new input shaft with different driven. The suspension will take on more travle and streched a little. This bike will sand only for darkart chasing and maybe PPE and "H" as well as other. If the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) can not produce I will then replace with other to get more useable power at speed with less stress. Trying to keep it a honda. Mixed breads get to much back lash at camp fire with cold ones flowing. I have posted on other sites for drive and driven choices as well as shock and arm pacakges. Got some good feed back. Fell free to make sugestions as well. This project will start from ground up with bare frame. I was hopeing to complete by fall, don't think I am going to make it untill next spring. Know any whaer I csan get trans stock or RPM. I post on wanted. Projected cost to be under 10,000. I will use second pilot as test bed for new motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) combo againt the one I run know. Thanks for the help and sugestions. Richard.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
While I have the bottom end apart I will modify the oil passage that supplies lube to the crank shaft bearings.

You have probably seen this mod some place else on the web or another Pilot Odyssey site, that's ok I will give my version any ways...

Here is the stock hole.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Some not all of the tools I use to perform this case mod.

Case modifications

hoserize the cases


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:02 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Here is the clutch side oil feed, I stuck the cut away bearing race in the bearing pocket to give you a idea how closed off the feed area is.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:03 pm 
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Another angle where the cases get a hoserized oil mod


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:04 pm 
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Location: Chicago
After a little opening up.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:06 pm 
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Location: Chicago
On the top side the hole gets opened up and tapered to promote better flow, some of the casting flaws are removed too.



I have not tried to remove them two cylinder dowels yet, been kind of avoiding that, see the rust, I hate to open that can or worms but it needs done...

Bamb hoserized cases


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:08 pm 
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Location: Chicago
This is the mag or flywheel side the oil feed is slightly different, again if you have seen this mod before sorry to bore you.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:09 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Look at this pic, with the old seal installed and the cut away bearing race you can see the opening is almost blocked off completly


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:11 pm 
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Now with the bearing race installed and using a mirror to see the opening the arrows point to the areas it will be slotted for more flow


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:12 pm 
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Some material removed increasing the distribution area.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:13 pm 
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A little more hoserized crank case mods


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:14 pm 
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I will sped a few more hours "hoserizing" or enhancing the crank cases.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:31 pm 
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Here is the cylinder bolted to 1/2 the crank case to give you an idea what it looks like inside, not much I can do here until I have the new cylinder, plenty of miss match, casting flaws etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:32 pm 
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Get the creative juices flowing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:32 pm 
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More


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:34 pm 
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Ok lets add the crankshaft, case matching

removing casting flaws
hoserized cases


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:36 pm 
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Ok remove the crankshaft and insert the piston


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:35 am
Posts: 31
Location: Fort Worth,Texas
Hoser,

Looking good,

90 HP!! I never thought it possible, How much you think your making with the 440?

TD


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