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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Pilot Snowmobile Engine Mod Carburetor - Transmission Clearance Solution by hoser..

Any watercraft gurus here, I am thinking about using a PWC carb on my 440 Pilot project so I can use a down draft manifold to provide clearance between my snowmobile Engine and the transmission.

440 Project here http://www.pilotodyssey.com/new440.htm

I am looking for a down draft intake and carbs off of the early smaller Rotax rotary valve engines
they used in the seadoo's 520cc and 580cc I know nothing about these?

Thanks


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downdraft.JPG
downdraft.JPG [ 29.02 KiB | Viewed 1409 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:33 pm 
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Location: nw ohio
hoser

you and i traded messages a while back on the other board about this. the intake from the 580 should be a direct bolt on. i got this from a friend of mine that has been a powersports mechanic and service manager for many years at the local everything dealer. you have a choice of a single or dual carb manifold. i will ask around with the guys i have ridden with to see who has what lying around. i would think that a single carb set up would give a better signal for low end than a dual set up. ther are several tuners out there that should be able to help, too. i will check with adds in the latest pwc mags to see who is still around. rossier engineering is who i think should be the most help, if they are still in it. they built national class pwc, and i think they did sleds too. hope this is of some help.

pete


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:49 pm 
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Location: nw ohio
another to look at. you can get block of plates for the oil pump to run premix.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... gory=31286

pete


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:52 pm 
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Location: Chicago
This one will fit my Engine? My Engine is a type 454 Rotax 440cc

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... gory=31286

Thanks, answer fast the auction is almost over haha


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:01 am 
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Location: nw ohio
i beleive so. i think the cases on the 440 and the 580 were the same. i think rossier engineering would know for sure. when we talked about this a few months ago i asked my buddy, and i am sure that he said it would. i will do a web search for rossier.

pete


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:01 am 
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Location: Chicago
bigpeterhead wrote:
hoser

you and i traded messages a while back on the other board about this. the intake from the 580 should be a direct bolt on. i got this from a friend of mine that has been a powersports mechanic and service manager for many years at the local everything dealer. you have a choice of a single or dual carb manifold. i will ask around with the guys i have ridden with to see who has what lying around. i would think that a single carb set up would give a better signal for low end than a dual set up. ther are several tuners out there that should be able to help, too. i will check with adds in the latest pwc mags to see who is still around. rossier engineering is who i think should be the most help, if they are still in it. they built national class pwc, and i think they did sleds too. hope this is of some help.

pete


Glad you spoke up I could not remember who it was I had talked to, I want a single carb
just to keep it simple I don't see me needing every ounce of power this thing will crank out,
when I am all done I will be happy if it is putting out a honest 70 hp.

I really really need the downdraft carb setup, it would solve all my problems, right now
I need to rotate the Engine forward about 30 degrees to make the exhaust less of a
pain and to provide more clearances 15 degreesis pushing it with a PWK I was thinking
of making home made adapters to go between the Engine and rubber manifold isolators
this would give me 30 degrees total but also would increase the intake tract length...
I think with the water craft setup I could set the Engine down on the skid plate like
I really wanted it then I can use the twin factory tuned pipes...

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:04 am 
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Location: nw ohio
here is a link to the tuner i was talking about.

http://www.rossiereng.com/


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:04 am 
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Location: Chicago
bigpeterhead wrote:
i beleive so. i think the cases on the 440 and the 580 were the same. i think rossier engineering would know for sure. when we talked about this a few months ago i asked my buddy, and i am sure that he said it would. i will do a web search for rossier.

pete


A good friend of mine says the same thing any of the engines 580 and below would work,
they were the same, he also said a 520? He had a line on one here local and was looking
into it tonight but he never called back, I will call him in the morning to see if he got it.

This place? http://www.rossiereng.com

Thanks again


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:07 am 
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Location: nw ohio
water craft carbs are pretty simple. nuch like the old tillitson and walbaro sled carbs. i see no reason why they should bot work. good luck.

pete


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:12 am 
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Location: nw ohio
yes, on the rossier. i do not recall a 520. doesn't mean it wasn't. there were two 580 motors, a white and a yellow. manifolds the same on both. i have a few carbs around, if you decide you want to go with the aftermarket manifold. you are welcome to try them to see what you want to go with.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:07 am 
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Lee I know what you mean on the cooling system, something need to be done a big radiator, or a dual setup


But on the RPM/HP part I think what it needs to be done is tune the clutch, that Engine is putting out 165HP those are more than enough at 2K or 1500RPM if the clutch is setup for those RPM's
I am right or wrong? Please help me out here because I been really considering that Engine as option for more power/reliability combination…. Hehe


Odykid


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:54 am 
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Location: Chicago
Odykid how wide is that Engine you don't want 1/2 of it sticking out the side of the
Pilot, I would look more for a sled 4 stroke where they are forced to keep the
length shorter.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:14 am 
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I will look at all that Hoser when I can get my hands on one of those, of course before I spend any money..hehe

What will be the max wide we can use on a pilot with out cutting and welding much or the Engine sticking out?

I ask you this because you have it handy now with your repairs... :-)


Odykid :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:46 pm 
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Location: Chicago
In anticipation of getting a downdraft intake and carb I now lowered the Engine back
down (you gotta love trial and error ) where I really wanted it in the first place and for
all the right reasons, in the process I noticed the oil tube that supplies oil for the rotary
valve drive gears is sticking out I wonder if it will clear the manifold shown in the picture ?


Attachments:
File comment: See oil tube?
MVC-403F.JPG
MVC-403F.JPG [ 101.49 KiB | Viewed 4360 times ]
downdraft.JPG
downdraft.JPG [ 16.12 KiB | Viewed 4360 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:24 pm 
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Location: MI
What are you going to do for fuel? Up in the nerfs, like you were considering for extra fuel in the past?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:41 pm 
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Dunno yet I can fabricate a few tanks and tuck them in almost any place or
just strap on a old motorcycle gas tank on roof heh


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 Post subject: PIPES
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:37 pm 
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Location: Florida
bigpeterhead wrote:
yes, on the rossier. i do not recall a 520. doesn't mean it wasn't. there were two 580 motors, a white and a yellow. manifolds the same on both. i have a few carbs around, if you decide you want to go with the aftermarket manifold. you are welcome to try them to see what you want to go with.


Hey bigpeterhead can you find Hoser a good set of aftermarket sled pipes for that Engine he has there?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:24 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:30 pm
Posts: 481
Location: Nebraska
I take it someone bought the downdraft Intake and Carb for you ?

I was going to bid but didn't want to drive up the price...

Noticed whoever got it sniped the auction with under 30 seconds left... NICE

I haven't given up on the dual carbs yet myself but if I do I'll most likely switch to one of them also...

PS
Just remove the oil pump and add a blockoff plate and you should have no clearance issues...

Later
Dennis


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:30 am 
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haha, see that "Edit" button you should be able to go back and edit your post..

Yeah I had stoneman snipe it for me glad you didnt run it up, I think that lube
tube could be router another way but I will probably have to remove the head
and one cylinder to assess it. I will remove the oil injection and blank it off I
rather pre mix.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:03 pm
Posts: 33
Location: nw ohio
hoser

glad to see that you got the manifold. wondered if it was you. do you know what size carb is on it? seadoo uses mikuni carbs. if you can find out what year and model it came off of, i can help identify the carb. sudco has a great booklet on the tuning of these carbs. i have one that i will dig out. it will be easy to adapt a snorkle to the carb with a k&n adaprter. after you have it in your possesion get a hold of me, i have some items that you could probalbly use lying about in the garage.

pete


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:03 pm 
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Location: nw ohio
hoser

i am not sure how the pwc Engine lubed the rotary valve. i will check and see if i can scan those pages of a service manual. but i do not recall seeing a tube like that in any of the seadoo' that i have ridden with. it may be incorporated into the manifld. will be able to do this monday, or tuesday.

pete


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:05 pm 
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Location: Chicago
All I know at this point is "CARBURETOR FOR SEADOO 580" the seller has not replied to
Stonemans email yet, once he does I will try and find out more, the Engine I am using
came with 34mm or 36mm from the factory I hope this one is not to big, any pictures
of the adapter for a filter handy?

Once I get it I will be able to take measurments and numbers to verify what I have.

Thanks again...


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:36 pm 
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Location: nw ohio
i don't think it will be too big. your Engine came with twin carbs. there is a good chance it is a 44mm kikuni bn carb. it may be a 38mm, that is dependant on the model it came from. my 701cc yamaha came stock with twin 38mm carbs. 44's are the popular upgrade with a pipe, porting and head work. a single 44was also used on the 701. i have ran both 38 and 44 on ported yamahwa engines. the 38's were worked on to frow better. i lilked both, the 28's hit harder, while i could get abot 500 more rpm's with the 44's. after you know what you have we can go from there. i wil help with what i know, or point you in a direction i know can help. here are a couple types of adapters.

pete


Attachments:
Carb_Adapters.gif
Carb_Adapters.gif [ 27.95 KiB | Viewed 3811 times ]
filter_adapters.jpg
filter_adapters.jpg [ 13 KiB | Viewed 3811 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:53 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Thanks for the pictures, the carb requires a fuel pump but will I need to do anythng tricky
to plumb the gas lines, I need a return line or just go from the pump to the carb? Pressure
regulator?

This do me any good, I could add a clamp on filter as pre filter?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... gory=31286


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:03 pm 
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Location: nw ohio
there is a good chance that the carb may have a pump on it. if not, the standard mikuni pump is what they used. you will be able to tell when it arrives. seadoo used carbs with pumps on them, and seprate pumps. and on twin carb set ups they would use one carb with a pump and one with out that was connected to the one with the pump. the fuel circuit is mach like that of thee pilot/odyssey. are you familar with the older sleds that used diapham carbs? these carbs are very similar.


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